Q: Let's talk about the evidence locker. Where is the evidence locker?

A: The evidence lockers. There were two primary locations where evidence was held by the Texas Department of Public Safety. One was in Waco at a storage facility near the Assistant US Attorney's office, and the other was located at the Texas Ranger facility in Austin.

Q: And these were like wire cages or something where all this stuff was kept?

A: No. Actually not. One was a commercial storage facility and the other was just your standard basement storage room in a public building in Austin.

Q: Secured? Under lock and key?

A: Oh, yea, under lock and key, and under the control of the Texas Rangers, in the case of the Austin facility. And under the control of Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms in the case of the Waco facility.

Q: I think we need to establish here who actually gathered the evidence that was in the evidence locker?

A: The evidence was gathered primarily by Texas Rangers, under the close supervision of FBI agents. It was not an independent investigation in the context that the FBI had input, they helped identify, and possibly misidentify, certain objects. They were involved in the crime scene and it was on the presumption that they were not suspects. That they indeed had been the proper law enforcement agency on scene. Now, the scene had been transferred on April the 20th, to the Texas Rangers, so they had full authority. But they had the FBI working alongside of them, as they gathered the evidence. And there's an old adage in law enforcement, if you control the evidence you control the case.

So, it appears that, to a degree there could have been corruption of the evidence gathered. And that corruption is clearly seen when we looked at the evidence in the evidence locker. There was gross misidentification of certain objects that were critical to the arson investigation. I'm referring specifically here to flash bang devices found at the points of origin of the fire.

I suspect there are more to be found, in the evidence chain, we found six. Four of which were found inside the building, two of which were found outside, one at the front and one at the back of the building. Of the four found inside the building, one was found in the foyer area near the front doors, one of them near the southwest corner of the building where the first fire started, another in the dining room area where the second fire started, and one in the chapel area where the third fire started.

Now the interesting thing about this is, that these devices were identified not as flash bang or distraction devices, but rather as silencers for pistols. Now as most people know, a silencer basically will not start a fire. But a flash bang device is historically known by police agencies in particular, and civilians in general, as a firestarter. When it detonates it puts out a very large and very hot flame, 14 - 18 inches long at the bottom, and 12 - 14 inches at the top. It’s cylindrical in shape and when it lands on the floor from being tossed in, it may roll underneath something and then detonate.

These devices are dangerous if they go off in close proximity to a human being, they have been known to maim and or kill an individual. Because, it’s an explosive detonation that gives off six million candle power plus a bang of 175 decibels. Basically, it’s designed to distract and stun. Not just frighten, but distract and stun. If it gets too close it can kill you.

But the issue is that these devices were found at the points of origin of the fires, and they were misidentified as silencers for pistols. I can see where the Texas Rangers might have difficulty with the identification, but the fact is that the Texas Rangers were being assisted by the FBI, who should have no difficulty at all distinguishing between a silencer and a flash bang body, So I am curious, did the FBI give them the wrong information, or did they allow them to use the wrong information in identifying these objects?

Other objects were misidentified also. There are 40 millimeter projectiles that appear in the evidence chain. The first set are, interestingly enough, still missing. We have photographs of them as they were recovered on the site. But neither myself, my colleagues, nor the Texas Rangers could find the M651E1 US Military pyrotechnic CS gas rounds. We simply couldn't find them. Neither could the Texas Rangers. They were supposed to be in custody but they were not found.

Now those projectiles are the two that started the brew-ha-ha with the FBI admitting to their use, in August and September of 1999. But the fact is that they still haven't been found in the evidence chain although there is solid evidence that they did exist at one time in the evidence chain.

And, we found two other 40 millimeter projectiles, that were mislabeled in the evidence chain as CS gas canisters which we now know they were not. We have had indications from the FBI that as many as five or six of these particular types of 40 millimeter projectiles were fired at the Branch Davidians on April 19, but we only found two and they are not CS gas rounds. They have nothing to do with CS gas. At this time we believe that they had some other function, they were either hyper flash bangs or something else.

Our conclusions are not final at this time as to the contents, but we know that they were certainly at least pyrotechnic in nature, and they may have been pyrophoric. There's an important distinction people should make here between pyrotechnic and pyrophoric. Pyrotechnic does not necessarily imply that a device is an incendiary or used to start fires. Pyrophoric is fire bearer in Greek, and this sort of device would commonly be known as an incendiary device. Our conclusions are not final at this time as to what the projectiles were used for, but whatever they were used for, they indeed were mislabeled in the evidence chain as CS gas canisters which we now know they were not.

Q: Did you find any other anomalies in the evidence lockers besides the projectiles?

A: Yes, for example, we walked in the first day, and lo and behold there is a box sitting on the floor near the door. A cardboard box, an unremarkable box actually, I think it was a beer box, if I remember right. And in the box, was a couple of dozen videotapes. And I'm saying, well, isn't that interesting. When we looked a little closer, we saw they were Super VHS tapes made by the Department of Public Safety, starting the morning of April the 19th. Well, that got real interesting because the question was did the FBI know the DPS was making videotapes that day? What was in them? And lo and behold we found some real surprises. And to this day I am not convinced that the FBI knows what's in those tapes. And of course we got copies of those tapes, and a lot of that material has found it’s way into the new film.

Q: Besides the video, were there still photos taken on April 19th also?

A: Oh, yes. I would say the still photos were taken by the FBI and the Department of Public Safety. Particularly on April the 19th and the immediate aftermath. Now we did find a number of resources in other locations. And I'm not going to get real specific, but we found photos and documents in a number of different locations, including attorney's offices, places of that nature. And those documents and photos were very helpful in preparing us, giving us clues and cues, about what to look for when we got to go to the evidence locker.

Q: What else did you find in the evidence lockers besides the projectiles?

A: Well one of the interesting things that we found concerned the death of Michael Dean Schroeder, the young man who attempted to go back to the compound on the night of February 28, after the initial shoot-out on the morning of February 28.

Mr. Schroeder was wearing a certain kind of clothing when he made an attempt to go back in to the compound. He was engaged by the BATF out in an area called the hay barn, which is some 350 yards away from Mt. Carmel. The ATF agents fired on him when they saw him raise his hand gun, and he went down onto the ground. As to whether he was dead at that point in time or not is uncertain.

However, we've subsequently found photographs and videotape of the recovery of his body, clearly showing a watch cap pulled back from the top of his head, laying on the nape of his neck as he was laying face down on the ground. That watch cap is very interesting because when the body was presented to the medical examiner the cap was not part of the clothing inventoried, it was not looked at by the medical examiner.

However, when we were looking through the evidence locker, we found that watch cap. It was present with the rest of the clothing. I examined it and although I'm not a forensic expert in this field, I do know what gunpowder residue looks like, and I would say that hat and the residue on it needs to be tested. Because to my eye, the two holes at the bottom edge of the watch cap that represent the two bullet holes in the head of Michael, along with the presence of gunpowder residue on the hat, could mean that the shots were administered at close range. If they were, and there is evidence to suggest that there were two shots fired, after the initial gunfight, then it appears that Mr. Schroeder was executed or murdered, on the evening of February 28, 1993.

Q: Any other things that you actually looked at in the evidence lockers struck you as unusual, unexpected?

A: Well, yes, for example one of the things we found fascinating is a byplay on the evidence gathering. We wanted to look at certain specific evidence in our initial review, our first couple of visits, a particular object a 40 millimeter shell casing could not be found. It was not found by the Rangers, it was not found by myself. And there was a subsequent third visit as well where we couldn't find it. On the fourth and last visit, I reversed my patterns, and I started looking on the opposite side of the room that I had traditionally started on. And in the last box, which would have been the first box that we looked at, on the top of everything else in the box, was a brand new manila envelope with the exhibit number of the object, the 40 millimeter shell casing that I had been looking for.

All the rest of the evidence was in clear plastic bags with black magic marker identifications written on them, and a plastic label glued, or taped on them. And then here was the mysterious, long disappeared 40 millimeter shell casing. Back in the evidence chain in the top of the box, that was the first box, that I would have come to had I followed my normal pattern. I find it just amazing that that shell casing grew legs and suddenly reappeared after three previous visits including the first visit being conducted by the Texas Rangers themselves.

And frankly, I was shocked. When we went in the evidence locker and began looking at evidence, it was the kind of thing where there were flash bang devices that were marked as silencers, there were 40 millimeter munitions that were not CS gas canisters that were marked as CS gas canisters. There was evidence missing that later showed up, and evidence that was there that later disappeared. I'm confused. I thought this was an evidence locker that maintained a chain of custody, an issue that you know everything that's supposed to be there and it stays there, it doesn't leave. It doesn't get altered.

That was a phenomenon that also exhibited itself when we dealt with the evidence relative to persons inside of the concrete bunker.

We wanted to take samples of residue off of certain objects like clothing, and sleeping bags or blankets that had been placed over the victims in the bunker, in an attempt to avoid the heat and the fire.

We had Dr. Fred Whitehurst, a Ph.D. chemist with us on the fourth visit, and we brought him along to take samples and do testing of residues left on these fabric materials because they would have been good traps if you will, for the molecular accumulations left by the explosive device that detonated on the roof of the bunker. It could have given us an absolute chemical signature relative to the type of explosive device used. It would have confirmed what our other experts were telling us.

Those blankets survived unburned, we saw the videotape of them made by the Department of Public Safety when the bodies were exhumed. We sent a copy of that videotape and documentation, the best that we had on those objects, their exhibit numbers etc., and we asked the Texas Rangers to please find those objects in advance of our arrival so we could have Dr. Whitehurst test them.

The Texas Ranger that was in charge, told us he just didn’t have time to do that and we'd have to look for these objects ourselves. But when we did, there were a number of them we could not find, like the blankets, the clothing, the personal effects of the people inside the bunker. Had we been able to take samples we might have been able to find the explosive residue to tell us what kind of a device was detonated on the roof of the bunker on that morning of April the 19th. But we couldn't find it, those items were mysteriously missing.

So we had this strange chain of evidence where evidence walks in and walks out at will. What do I make of that? Well, I'm not sure what to make of it, except that, there's a certain irony there about certain kinds of evidence surviving the fire, and other kinds of evidence, like the right hand front door not surviving the fire. So, I'm amused and bemused at the fact that certain evidence that might support the government's contentions about the Davidians would survive the fire, but certain evidence that might imply there was something else going on, relative to what the FBI did or didn’t do on April the 19th has mysteriously disappeared. And then to make it more complicated, there's other evidence that disappears and then reappears by magic.

Q: You mentioned your other experts in relation to explosives; to the best of their knowledge what device was used on top of the bunker?

A: Well, it appears that some sort of a shape charge, a military style shape charge, that's used for cratering or breaching had been used on the roof of the bunker. The structure itself was a late 1930’s concrete storage vault, with steel reinforcing bars in it. It certainly wasn’t the best construction, but sufficient. It withstood the fire, and indeed it had withstood a fire back in I believe the mid eighties. At the same location it had resisted another earlier fire.

That particular bit of business was curious because the structure was about six to eight inches thick with steel reinforcing bars running through it. And when this detonation occurred it made an almost perfectly round hole about 24 to 28 inches across, and the edges were beveled down and in and the rebar bent inward. Usually, to get maximum effect, these kinds of charges are put on a little metal legged stand. It’s called a standoff stand. It allows the explosive force to focus in the air slightly in front and ahead of the thing. And if in fact it had been put on these metal legs it would have cut the rebar as well. We believe that the evidence shows the explosive was placed flush on the surface of the concrete, which then exfoliated the concrete on the interior of the roof. The concrete fragments then acted as secondary projectiles and just sliced and diced anybody inside. The results of the blast, as we show in the film, can be seen in the remains and the condition of the remains. The device itself in all probability, was what caused the death of the majority of people within that room.

Q: Who was in that room?

A: All of the children, and many of the women were in that room.

Q: All of the children?

A: And many of the women.

Now it’s interesting to note that the military had given written commentary to the FBI that if it had been their operation they would have captured or killed the Branch Davidian leadership. In other documents we found the government forces anticipated that, in the event of a calamity in the building like the fire, Koresh and his lieutenants, would have sought shelter in one of two places. Either the underground school bus, which the FBI successfully blocked any entry into earlier in the morning, or, the concrete bunker. So, there are indications that the plan was to eliminate the Branch Davidian leadership in the bunker and hopefully leave the rest of the residents intact in the various other locations inside the building. But clearly, the women and children took refuge there instead.

Q: Given the construction of the bunker is it likely that anyone would have survived the fire there?

A: I think there's a possibility. Of course there's the possibility of suffocation due to a lack of oxygen because the fire burned pretty quickly. And the forensic analyst for the FBI who appears in the film, made the observation that there was a good chance that someone could have survived in that structure. But if you detonate a high explosive device on the roof and blow all that concrete and the gas plasma of the explosive detonation into the room, well, it wouldn't have mattered if they were still breathing or not, at that point. Judging from the disarticulated remains, they were not going to survive that.